elisabeth susanti Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Can anyone knows about this species? I need help to identify the species. Thank you Elisabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Well, that is another interesting plant Elisabeth! Is this from Fakfak on Indonesia's "birdhead" again? The flower looks 3-parted in the photo. Is that true or just the way the photo makes it look and there are really 4 petals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Wistuba Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Wow!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elisabeth susanti Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Yes, Frank. This is from Fakfak, Indonesia. The flowers have 4 petals, it's because the photo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 I do have some thoughts on this ID but I would like a few more facts please before I have a go at it. Thanks. Do you know a particular elevation where the plant was growing, or lacking that would you characterize it as a lowland species or was it up a mountain some distance above sea level? Is there a total lack of spines? None on the caudex, stem or intermingled with the hairs in the inflorescences? Was there rainwater in the caudex when it was collected? Were the plants near the ground or high in the tree? What is the length and width of a typical leaf in cm? Do the floral bracts change color when they get wet? Thanks very much Elisabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Bonjour a myrmephytum may be a moniliforme or a naumannii no have you a flower section to see the ring hair , the anther and the stigma a marvellous discovery jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Wistuba Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Bonjour a myrmephytum may be a moniliforme or a naumannii no have you a flower section to see the ring hair , the anther and the stigma a marvellous discovery jeff Yes, I agree, it might well be Myrmephytum moniliforme. Awesome finding!!! Maybe I'll have to revisit Fakfak this August... All the best Andreas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurélien Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 Yes, I agree, it might well be Myrmephytum moniliforme. Really? Pretty good! That's a really nice discovery indeed! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 29, 2015 Report Share Posted April 29, 2015 .Guys, if it is a Myrmephytum where is the 6 parted star-like flower? Elisabeth says the flower is 4 parted and in the photo the tops of the petals look blunt, no points like in the H & J drawings in the Myrmephytum revision and in the Myrmephytums I have flowered.. I may be working under a misconception as well concerning the purple-brown fleshy bracts. But both of the Myrmephytums I have grown (beccari and yellow fruited one from the Philippines) have had big obvious purple -brown fleshy bracts that I do not see here. Because of the two points above I never considered it being a Myrmephytum.in spite of the geography being right - the birdshead is know for Myrmephytums. So, I went off in the direction that it might be a Hydnophytum and based on the questions I am waiting for Elisabeth to answer I may have a canidate to present. (I hope you will still answer my questions Elisabeth, in spite of the possibility that it is a Myrmephytum.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elisabeth susanti Posted April 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Hello Frank I found this species in the mangrove trees by the beach. the tuber there are no thorns and when the tuber is cut turned red. But, the inflorescence are red hairs. leaf size, Length: 8.50 to 13.50 cm width: 3.10 to 6.40 cm Thank you, Elisabeth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Wistuba Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 .Guys, if it is a Myrmephytum where is the 6 parted star-like flower? Elisabeth says the flower is 4 parted and in the photo the tops of the petals look blunt, no points like in the H & J drawings in the Myrmephytum revision and in the Myrmephytums I have flowered.. I may be working under a misconcept as well concerning the purple-brown fleshy bracts. But both of the Myrmephytums I have grown (beccari and yellow fruited one from the Philippines) have had big obvious purple -brown fleshy bracts that I do not see here. Because of the two points above I never considered it being a Myrmephytum.in spite of the geography being right - the birdshead is know for Myrmephytums. So, I went off in the direction that it might be a Hydnophytum and based on the questions I am waiting for Elisabeth to answer I may have a canidate to present. (I hope you will still answer my questions Elisabeth, in spite of the possibility that it is a Myrmephytum.) Hmmm, I overlooked the answer concerning the 4 parted flower and from the picture it was not so visible, but you are right.... What is your guess, when it comes to Hydnophytum, Frank? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Bonjour have you a flower section to see the ring hair , the anther and the stigma , but also the lobes form? look also the style bifid for the hydnophytum - 6 fid for the myrmephytum , if you have some seeds look also the pyrenes 2(4) for hydnophytum 4-8 for the myrmephytum jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Once I decided to go with this plant being a Hydnophytum because of the flowers I ruled out the Hydnophytums in Beccari’s work Malesia by looking thru all the plates. None had the inflorescence that Elisabeth’s plant shows. I would have liked to have the Dr. Jebb revision of Hydnophytum to consult, but as we all know it has yet to be published -the note about the revision on Dr. Jebb’ home page at the Dublin Botanical notwithstanding. http://www.botanicgardens.ie/herb/research/hydnophytum.htm In that note he does say that the revision describes 22 new species of Hydnophytum. As of this point those 22 new species are in limbo – they will not be official species until the revision is published in a scientific journal. However the herbarium specimens for at least some of those species are findable online in the virtual herbariums at Kew, LAE – The Papua New Guinea National Herbarium and at Leiden. I realized that it was a long shot for any of the Huxley and Jebb new species to be a match to a Fakfak plant because H & J have not collected on the Indonesian west side of the Island of New Guinea. They have stayed on the eastern PNG side of the island when collecting .The information for each “in limbo” species is limited to what is written on the herbarium sheet label until the revision of Hydnophytum is published. The questions I asked you Elisabeth were to see if I could get some confirmation that your plant matches the herbarium sheet information of the species to be known as Hydnophytum auridemens. (There are 6 online images for this species in the National Herbarium of the Netherlands that I was unable to access beyond thumbprint size photos because of a “runtime error”) Here is the link to the Kew herbarium sheet for H. auridemens:http://plants.jstor.org/stable/10.5555/al.ap.specimen.k000761977 Here is the link to the LAE herbarium sheet which is more useful because you can click on it to enlarge it:http://www.pngplants.org/specImages/LAE258387.jpg The label mentions an irregular tuber and orange – brown bract hairs. The inflorescences look and are placed at least superficially like on Elisabeth’s first photo. The Kew and LAE labels are identical and the plants were collected on the Island of Missima at 400 meters elevation. Missima is about 100 miles east of the southeast tip of the “birdtail” peninsula of the Island of New Guinea. This is clear across the island of New Guinea from Fakfak. Elisabeth’s plant was on the beach. There is a better chance that lowland species have a wide distribution than upland species. I am not saying that your plant is for sure H. auridemens Elisabeth, but I think it, or something like it, has to be considered. It will be nice when we have the full description of H. auridemens available Ok guys, what do you think? Have I overlooked something that would rule out the someday-to –be Hydnophytum auridemens as a possible answer to Elisabeth’s query? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 this specie H.auridemens was found in the archipelago of Louisiades, is at the other end of the new guinea island more of 1500 km at 400m altitude not in the mangroves. when I enlarge more the KEW and LAE doc , the bract hair seem to me not as important the leave seem not as elliptic I would like to have answers to my questions on the flower and the drupe in any case we need more determinants items . 2 proposal Myrmephytum and Hydnophytum are not rejecter JEFF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Bonjour an other possibility in the genus HYDNOPHYTUM , H.mamberamoense may be present in this area jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrick Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 http://www.europeana.eu/portal/search.html?query=hydnophytum+&rows=96 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted May 2, 2015 Report Share Posted May 2, 2015 Jeff, did you find a description for H. manberamoense anywhere? The only useful information of the herbarium sheet label is that it has "orange fruits" which is wrong for Elisabeth's plant Derrick, nice resource page you provided, thank you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Wistuba Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Jeff, did you find a description for H. manberamoense anywhere? The only useful information of the herbarium sheet label is that it has "orange fruits" which is wrong for Elisabeth's plant Derrick, nice resource page you provided, thank you Hello Frank, hello Jeff, just see the collection number. It's essentially the same as one of the doubtful Myrmecodia species mentioned in Huxley and Jebb: The taxon found by Elisabeth has absolutely nothing that reminds me to Myrmecodia. So I would strongly doubt that this is the one. Please check the leaf attachments on the herbarium sheets: Indeed, the specimen on the sheet looks like a Myrmecodia with a drastically elongated stem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Bonjour ANDREAS I am OK with you the ELISABETH species is not a myrmecodia , may be a hydnophytum or a myrmephytum , I wait for the answer to the flower and the drupe. when you see the herbarium sheet to this H.mamberamoense , despite the bad state of conservation , this taxon stem seem to me more closer hydnophytum than myrmecodia may be a myrmephytum also . Huxley & jebb on their label from 1991 , write holotype H.mamberamoense . on your picture I see pollen with 3 or4 porate (like myrmephytum ; myrmecodia 2 or 3 porate ; hydnophytum 4( 3-5) ), I see also 2 lobed stigma close to hydnophytum no ? jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 Jeff, on what picture are you seeing pollen and a 2 lobed stigma? on your picture I see pollen with 3 or4 porate (like myrmephytum ; myrmecodia 2 or 3 porate ; hydnophytum 4( 3-5) ), I see also 2 lobed stigma close to hydnophytum no ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeff Posted May 6, 2015 Report Share Posted May 6, 2015 on the ANDREAS picture document for H.mamberamoense jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Hi Jeff, Do you mean the two herbarium sheets in the link that Derick provided? And if so, in which of the two sheets - the one from Kew or the one from the Netherlands do you see pollen and stigma information?. For me both of those images are too blurry to read the labels, much less see pollen or the stigma. Does one of the labels I can't read give the pollen and/or stigma information?. If you don't mean the Derrick links - I don't see any picture links that Andreas provided for H. mamberamoense? Can you provide me a link to his picture that you are talking about please? thanks, Frank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas Wistuba Posted May 7, 2015 Report Share Posted May 7, 2015 Hi Jeff, Do you mean the two herbarium sheets in the link that Derick provided? And if so, in which of the two sheets - the one from Kew or the one from the Netherlands do you see pollen and stigma information?. For me both of those images are too blurry to read the labels, much less see pollen or the stigma. Does one of the labels I can't read give the pollen and/or stigma information?. If you don't mean the Derrick links - I don't see any picture links that Andreas provided for H. mamberamoense? Can you provide me a link to his picture that you are talking about please? thanks, Frank Hi Frank, Jeff is referring to the text copied out of Huxley and Jebb. All the best Andreas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 It would appear as if Drs. Huxley & Jebb have buttered their bread on both sides as concerns the Drs. van Leeuwen’s collection #9540. There are two duplicate herbarium sheets of this collection available online – one at Kew and one at the National Herbarium of the Netherlands (NHN). On both the plant is identified by the van Leeuwens as “Hydnophytum species.” Huxley and Jebb latter annotated them both as “Hydnophytum mamberamoense” (as “type” on the NHN sheet in 1992 and as “holotype’ on the Kew sheet in December of 1991.) According to the International Plant Name Index "Hydnophytum mamberamoense" is not a validly published name. Ostensibly, the name was to be published in Huxley and Jebb’s Revision of the genus Hydnophytum that has never happened. And now the other side of the bread: In the 1993 Revision of the genus Myrmecodia, Huxley and Jebb have the van Leeuwen’s collection #9540 identified as a Myrmecodia. It is listed in the “Uncertain and Little Known Species” section at the end of the article as “Myrmecodia species 1 ‘mamberamoensis’. Species listed in this section of the revision are informational and do not constitute validly published names, in part because there is no Latin description. The International Plant Name Index does not list “Myrmecodia mamberamoensis” as a valid name. It looks to me as if it will take a validly published description of this material, one way or the other, to unravel the confusion. In the meantime we can say with certainty that this is not the identity of Elisabeth’s plant because her photo shows red fruits while the Drs. Van Leeuwen say on the sheets that their plant has orange fruits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrick Posted May 8, 2015 Report Share Posted May 8, 2015 It is not "H.mamberamoense". Compare the petioles, they are drastically different. http://www.europeana.eu/portal/record/11619/BOTANY_NBCNL_NETHERLANDS_BRAHMS_NHN419229.html?query=hydnophytum+&qt=false Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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