Aurélien

Hi Jeff,

but we have some  herbarium bogoriense sheet  with some  registration number ( LEIDEN), it is not sufficient   , find in borneo in 1925 and 1956

I don't understand: what's the question here?

The best,

Aurélien

Hi Jeff,

Bonjour

 

While this is indeed a good thing.

but we must also take into account other similar Hydnophytum has this P. Perangustum in different herbaria that can be seen

compare 2 different plant has no interest for me.

 

I would have like it compares this P.puffii  with P. extendifolium   for example

If you search for Hydnophytum "extendifolium", you will soon remark that it's also a nomen nudum...

It had never been published:

Here, IPNI:

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/advPlantNameSearch.do?find_family=&find_genus=hydnophytum&find_species=&find_infrafamily=&find_infragenus=&find_infraspecies=&find_authorAbbrev=&find_includePublicationAuthors=on&find_includePublicationAuthors=off&find_includeBasionymAuthors=on&find_includeBasionymAuthors=off&find_publicationTitle=&find_isAPNIRecord=on&find_isAPNIRecord=false&find_isGCIRecord=on&find_isGCIRecord=false&find_isIKRecord=on&find_isIKRecord=false&find_rankToReturn=all&output_format=normal&find_sortByFamily=on&find_sortByFamily=off&query_type=by_query&back_page=plantsearch

And also, WCSP:

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/qsearch.do;jsessionid=E2CC415BFB403B4B8D87366FB1085625

Thus, if WCSP haven't yet time to treat H. puffii, you'll see it in IPNI database. All is done: there's perhaps 3 names for the same plant, but 2 of them are only wind.

H. perangustum nor H. extendifolium exist, you can forget them.

The best,

Aurélien

Hi all,

Good news that something move! Another plant correctly named, I love it.

I'm personnally happy that this species are published by malesian people. I not always feel easy when american or european scientists publish all the diversity in the other countries.

No, the paper by Low et al has been published. That is what counts.

Rule of priority.

All the best

Andreas

Actually, H. perangustum is still a nomen nudum, as it had never been officially published... We only know this name by word of mouth.

I think it could be an humility lesson for Jebb and Huxley... They never want to share their work, announced in 2009.

All the best,

Aurélien

Hi Robert,

This plant seems to be the highly polymorphic D. bengalensis in my opinion...

You'll certainly see more clear when this plant bloom.

All the best,

Aurélien

Hi Robert,

Thank you for these informations. Incidentally, H. ferrugineum seems to be a slow grower in comparison with "classics" like H. formicarum, H. moseleyanum  or H. perangustum?

With my small experiment, I've noticed that H. ferrugineum grow faster than H. moseleyanum sowed the same day!

The best,

Aurélien

Hi Robert,

Well done!

How old is your "very young plant"?

To my experiment, this plant is really easy to germinate and grow, I have good hope that our 10 months old seedling will bloom this summer...

All the best!

Aurélien

may be if you have a inflorescence section

Are you really fetishist of flower section?

Huxley & Jebb note (page 285 of their revision) that M. tuberosa 'lanceolata', 'papuana' & 'pulvinata'(sic) form a continuum with their widespread lowland PNG 'taxon' 'muelleri' (sic.)   I use "sic" because all of these H&J "forms" should have double quotation marks to distinguish them from horticultural cultivars which they are certainly not.  It seems probable that this colony of M. tuberosa "Siasiada Village" may also reside somewhere under the wider umbrella of M. tuberosa "muelleri" sensu lato. 

I think you could be right.

After reading several time the tuberosa part of the J&C's Myrmecodia revision, I think that many of the M. tuberosa in cultivation (as nearly of of us, in Nancy) are in fact M. tuberosa 'muelleri'.

I've many doubt about the fairly common M. tuberosa 'armata' I'm nearly sure that many M. armata are in fact this muelleri...

Thus, IMO, one the typical aspect of M. tuberosa 'muelleri' is the long white petiole, that only a few part of your pictures depict.

Moreover, I agree with your remark about the quotation: it suggest that we are in presence of cultivars...

If these plants are dumped into the variable species M. tuberosa (why not), they could at least used a "scientific" name such as infraspecific rank: subpecies, variety or form...

The best,

Aurélien

Hi Derrick,

Indeed, this plant is interesting. Following Jebb & Huxley, only M. tuberosa 'papuana' occurs in this extreme-east part of PNG.

Thus, if the large, leathery leaves and long white petioles are typical of this 'nickname', as well as the spiny clypeoli, I have problems with the tubers. M. tuberosa 'papuana' should show regularly spiny tuber, and not smooth and ridged tubers like this one...

I think that a trinominal (nice denomination!) like your suggestion, M. tuberosa "Siasiada Village" should be interesting to distinguish this plant...

All the best,

Aurélien

Really? Amazing! First I was wondering that the asparagus-like shoots were a Psilotum or anything else.

This Myrmecodia si really beautiful! It's pretty rare to see so many green leaves at the same time in a Myrmecodia stem. So I suspect that they are all from the shoot of the year? This will mean that plants in nature grow particularly fast...

Aurélien

  That these names have not yet been relegated to synonyms of H. radicans is again because of the lack of a published revision. There are  many other examples. A few days ago I contacted IPNI with a query; If they prove to be helpful I will continue to liaise with them but so far no reply. 

I had contact with them and Dr. Aymeric Roccia about Pinguicula caussensis' publication a few years ago. They answer only after a few days, but were helpful and correct the database quickly.

I also have frequent request for Rafaël Govarets, who work in the WCSP, for my work at Nancy's BG. He answer systematically the same day and is trully helpful. In the few cases which I detect mistakes on the databases, it were also corrected the same day.

I don't have much faith in WCSP etc., lists, simply because their task is so truly astronomical in size and complexity.

These DB are only compilation of publication... But trully helpfull if you need an unique reference (as BG's should have) for synonyms (WCSP), geographical repartition, authors (IPNI), orthograph...

Hi Derrick,

Its seems that the two names refers to the same plant, but also to two different publications :

1884 (as H. kejense):

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do;jsessionid=B2A8B8DE99C9A0778956D1FC979A941E?id=753460-1&back_page=%2Fipni%2FeditAdvPlantNameSearch.do%3Bjsessionid%3DB2A8B8DE99C9A0778956D1FC979A941E%3Ffind_infragenus%3D%26find_isAPNIRecord%3Dtrue%26find_geoUnit%3D%26find_includePublicationAuthors%3Dtrue%26find_addedSince%3D%26find_family%3D%26find_genus%3Dhydnophytum%26find_sortByFamily%3Dtrue%26find_isGCIRecord%3Dtrue%26find_infrafamily%3D%26find_rankToReturn%3Dall%26find_publicationTitle%3D%26find_authorAbbrev%3D%26find_infraspecies%3D%26find_includeBasionymAuthors%3Dtrue%26find_modifiedSince%3D%26find_isIKRecord%3Dtrue%26find_species%3D%26output_format%3Dnormal

1885 (as H. keiense):

http://www.ipni.org/ipni/idPlantNameSearch.do;jsessionid=B2A8B8DE99C9A0778956D1FC979A941E?id=753459-1&back_page=%2Fipni%2FeditAdvPlantNameSearch.do%3Bjsessionid%3DB2A8B8DE99C9A0778956D1FC979A941E%3Ffind_infragenus%3D%26find_isAPNIRecord%3Dtrue%26find_geoUnit%3D%26find_includePublicationAuthors%3Dtrue%26find_addedSince%3D%26find_family%3D%26find_genus%3Dhydnophytum%26find_sortByFamily%3Dtrue%26find_isGCIRecord%3Dtrue%26find_infrafamily%3D%26find_rankToReturn%3Dall%26find_publicationTitle%3D%26find_authorAbbrev%3D%26find_infraspecies%3D%26find_includeBasionymAuthors%3Dtrue%26find_modifiedSince%3D%26find_isIKRecord%3Dtrue%26find_species%3D%26output_format%3Dnormal

However, WCSP seems to accept only H. kejense:

http://apps.kew.org/wcsp/namedetail.do?name_id=100954

Interestingly, they do not consider this name as a synonym of H. radicans, which is also still valid.

I suppose that "kejense" results of the latinisation of "Kei". Albeit actual botanists use often the apposition for the specific epithet, at 19th century, many botanists were good latinists and transalted all the location names. For example, "sandwicensis" for Sandwich Island, "lusitanicum" for portugal, "vogesiaca" for Vosges mountains, "Gallica" for France, "Australasica" for Australia, "neozelandica" for New Zealand...

This plant is certainly Decaisnina sumbawensis. Before Derrick's post, I suspect it to be Amyema beccarii.

I've seen it at Sulawesi last autumn, as a parasitic plant just near Hydnophytum, Lecanopteris and Dischidia. Many birds visit their flowers.

Yes, I agree, it might well be Myrmephytum moniliforme.

Really?

Pretty good! That's a really nice discovery indeed!

here in FRANCE ( may be in europe) no problem for the drupe or seeds  swap ,   just respected the CITES rules on the protected plantes , and their state of health ( no problem for drupe or seeds )

 

I do not know  if some ant plant are on the CITES I -II- III

 

see here to have an idea

 

 http://www.cites.org/

 

the species :http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php

 

jeff

The Cactaceae and Orchidaceae families, as well as the genus Nepenthes are included in the IInd annex of CITES (exepted species included in the Ist annex).

Since some ant-plants are known from these families, you have to respect CITES rules for these plants. For IInd annex's plants, a cession certificate with the list of plants and the prove that they are not poached in nature is sufficient for intra-UE exchanges.

I was really excited to see this nice plant in the wild.

Unfortunately, I was unable to see it nearest and I can't say if ants were associated with it: it grows epiphytically on a high tree, in a particularly dangerous position (above a cliff!).

Hello Aurelien.  My Squamellaria photos were taken in August 2013.  Since then at least two forum members have visited Taveuni Island to see and photograph these plants so there are some small benefits from our sharing.  However, we now need more members to follow up on my visit to Bougainville Island in the Solomons and Papua New Guinea.

Ok, so that's really recent.

Bougainville, Solomons and New Guinea are a long travel for Europeans like us... And not really cheap destinations.

Hi Aurelien,

At least while we were there it was hard to do a few decent photographs because we permanently were in clouds and slight rain.

I believe that the roots on many tubers "harvest" the drops from the fog.

It was extremely humid!

All the best

Andreas

Ok, that's also why some mosses or Hymenophyllum could developp in the tubers... Epiphyts on epiphyts!

The first picture might well show the same individual!

Yes it looks! That's funny to see the same plants...

Derrick, when did you take these pics?

Hi,

This habitat look to be very humid, as we can see with the fog and the quantity of epiphytes around the tubers.

How high where it?

The best,

Aurélien

This species come from Guadeloupe in the Caribbean.

Blakea is know to house mites (acari), perhaps little ants?

Interesting!

It's look like an asian vicariant of Coussapoa and Cecropia, each in Urticaceae now.

Does this genus have deep/empty stems like the american ones?

In the 2nd picture, the leaves are really reminiscent of Coussapoa dealbata.

Thanks a lot for these informations!

We grow Markea coccinea in our artificial ant garden, and we have also a Juanulloa sp. from Mexico, but I don't know this genus as a myrmecophyt... Really precious information!

 

Hello Derrick,

you are of cause correct.

What I meant is Myrmecopteris, not Myrmecophila....sorry for mixup...

All the best

Andreas

 

I understand your confusion, Andreas, because if some Lecanopteris were rattached to the genus Myrmecopteris, L. mirabilis is considered as a Myrmecophila !

http://www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/tro-26610500

But I think this name is illegitimate because in the Plantae Kingdom, a genus is also called Myrmecophila - as Derrick says.

Homonymy in genus is possible, but only for different kingdoms. Some plants and animals have for example the same genus, but we cannot made a mixup.

I don't understand why TPL consider that the valid name for Lecanopteris mirabilis is Myrmecophila mirabilis...

I never heard about hybrids in Hydnophytiinae... I noted also that many Myrmecodia could be cleistogamic!

But there's so few informations about Squamellaria...