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Dischidia collyris or D. milnei???


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The statement that D. collyris = D. milnei arose under the recent Dischidia saccata post; however, I will start a new thread to avoid confusion.  My current records obtained from Tropicos, indicate that if these are the same species (???), that collyris (1831)  has precedence  over milnei (1891.)  What am i missing?

 

Dischidia collyris Nathaniel Wallich was published in A Numerical List of Dried Specimens, 1831.  Locality Peninsular Malaya.

Dischidia milnei William Botting Hemsley was published in Annals of Botany. Oxford 5, 1891.  Locality Solomon Islands.  Also a homonym published in Bulletin of Miscellaneous Information Kew 137, 1895.  Both are stem clasping, shell leaved species. 

 

Here is an image of a cultivated D. collyris from the Tropicos database. 

67EA074B-6675-4D9C-8B0D-A8F33E89E35A.jpg

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This is a shell leafed species I photographed in the lowlands very close to the ocean near Kieta on Bougainville Island, northern Solomon Islands Archipelago.  D. milnei was collected on the Solomon Islands.

 

From the following informations in this thread (thanks DG.) I can now write that this is probably Dischidia milnei William Botting Hemsley published in Annals of Botany. Oxford 5, 1891.

 

10 First imbricate leaved Dischidia sp., found south of Kieta, east central Bougainville Island.JPG]

post-3-0-21539700-1395091524_thumb.jpg

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Okay, I think this was due to a comment I made.  I may have my species confused.  The reason I posted that D. collyris = milnei is b/c I received a specimen from Atlanta Botanical Garden labeled as, Dischidia collyris.  I sent flowers to Tanya and she ID'd the plant as D. milnei.  Since then I've, erroneously, made the connection in my mind that these two species were synonymous.  The reality is that Dischidia melanesica is synonymous with D. milnei (which I've confirmed via email from Tanya that I received some years ago).

 

I will add that the picture from Tropicos is likely D. milnei.  Being that the plant displays no flowers, it would be nearly impossible to say.  That being said, the fruit bears very close resemblance to Dischidia milnei fruit which I attached a very poor photo of (my original is incognito).

 

According to Rintz (1980), D. collyris is synonymous with Dischidia albiflora which would be possible being that they are both from Malaysia.  The reason that D. collyris does not have precedence over D. albiflora despite its earlier publishing is that the species name is nomen nudum.  Perhaps the publication did not follow the code in some way making the name invalid.  I have no idea but at the very least, the species name Dischidia collyris is not a valid name in the first place.

 

I've included a few photos of D. albiflora for the sake of the discussion.

post-27-0-99182000-1395107479.jpg

post-27-0-18678000-1395109057.jpg

post-27-0-05007700-1395109327.jpg

post-27-0-18031500-1395109342_thumb.jpg

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Hum, difficult question...

 

I grow this plant, received as D. imbricata, later relabelled as D. collyris, and I've re-identified it as D. cf. purpurea...

These plants are really difficult to identify I think.

 

412690Dischidiacfpurpurea197734133.jpg

 

283165Dischidiacfpurpurea197734131.jpg

 

I can say with confidence that your plant is not Dischidia purpurea. That species has very long peduncles with clumps of tiny white flowers that have a bit of purple and pink in them. 

 

Your plant is likely D. milnei or possibly Conchophyllum striatum. I'd need to see the flowers under a microscope. The foliage looks similar to D. milnei. If you have any provenance, it would make it easier to say. 

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Thanks for your clarification...

Unfortunately, I didn't have any location for this plant. It's grow at Nancy since 1970!

 

I don't understand why you consider Conchophyllum as a different genus, even though you confess you need a microscope to distinguish it?

 

Dischidia striata wouldn't be a more consistent name?

 

About this plant in particular, does it exist any other information which can distinguish the two species?

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Thanks for your clarification...

Unfortunately, I didn't have any location for this plant. It's grow at Nancy since 1970!

 

I don't understand why you consider Conchophyllum as a different genus, even though you confess you need a microscope to distinguish it?

 

Dischidia striata wouldn't be a more consistent name?

 

About this plant in particular, does it exist any other information which can distinguish the two species?

 

Conchophyllum striatum is in a different genus becuase the species has not yet been properly given a name in Dischidia.  So technically, it must remain as a Conchophyllum.  The plant should be moved to Dischidia.  We can't use Dischidia striata b/c it would not technically be a valid name until it is properly moved using the code guidelines.

 

A notable difference between D. milnei and C. striatum are the leaves.  C. striatum has small leaves, about the size of a US nickel.  D. milnei typically has leaves twice that size.  The flowers of D. milnei vary a little but when dissected, the gynostegium is easy to distinguish b/c it has no anther appendages if my memory serves me.

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Thanks DG for all of these fascinating new insights  I am making lots of changes to my chapter on myrmecophyte dischidias. I agree that these are difficult plants to identify.  I remember reading about "Dischidia cornuta Tatyana Livshultz published in Blumea 50 (1) 2005 that is a succulent leafed, epiphytic, trunk clasping species almost identical to the widespread D. imbricata except for having insignificant to the lay person, flower differences.  Record: Southern Laos; Champasak Province, Ban Thongset, Nong Khoum at Lat. 15o 20' N, Lon. 106o 32' E at 400-1000 m (1312-3281 ft.)

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No problem, Derrick. I apologize for the mistake on the D. collyris.

I will post a photo of my Dischidia cornuta and of one of the clones of D. imbricata to show how similar they are when sterile. The flowers also look much alike externally.

Thanks DG for all of these fascinating new insights  I am making lots of changes to my chapter on myrmecophyte dischidias. I agree that these are difficult plants to identify.  I remember reading about "Dischidia cornuta Tatyana Livshultz published in Blumea 50 (1) 2005 is a succulent leafed, epiphytic, trunk clasping species almost identical to the widespread D. imbricata except for having insignificant to the lay person, flower differences.  Record: Southern Laos; Champasak Province, Ban Thongset, Nong Khoum at Lat. 15o 20' N, Lon. 106o 32' E at 400-1000 m (1312-3281 ft.)

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No problem, Derrick. I apologize for the mistake on the D. collyris.

 Apologies are not required, we will all make mistakes, Indeed, I have already amended quite a few in my Dischidia notes, so I am glad I checked. Dr Livshultz has obviously been very helpful, unfortunately my experience of certain other doctorates (all male???) has been quite negative.   

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Conchophyllum striatum is in a different genus becuase the species has not yet been properly given a name in Dischidia.  So technically, it must remain as a Conchophyllum.  The plant should be moved to Dischidia.  We can't use Dischidia striata b/c it would not technically be a valid name until it is properly moved using the code guidelines.

 

A notable difference between D. milnei and C. striatum are the leaves.  C. striatum has small leaves, about the size of a US nickel.  D. milnei typically has leaves twice that size.  The flowers of D. milnei vary a little but when dissected, the gynostegium is easy to distinguish b/c it has no anther appendages if my memory serves me.

Schlechter described Dischidia striata in 1913 (Bot. Jahrb. Syst. 50(1): 101. 1913) and Conchophyllum striatum in 1916 (Beih. Bot. Centralbl. xxxiv. II. 5 (1916). We have to see the bibliography to know if it's the same plante or different species...

 

About the size, my plant have leaves of about 4cm diameter. So, it could be D. milnei? It's in flower at this time. I can also dissect a flower.

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Schlechter described Dischidia striata in 1913 (Bot. Jahrb. Syst. 50(1): 101. 1913) and Conchophyllum striatum in 1916 (Beih. Bot. Centralbl. xxxiv. II. 5 (1916). We have to see the bibliography to know if it's the same plante or different species...

 

About the size, my plant have leaves of about 4cm diameter. So, it could be D. milnei? It's in flower at this time. I can also dissect a flower.

 

Okay thats good to know.  I didn't look to see if the name was already used.  It could be possible they are are the same but I have a feeling they are not.

 

If you can dissect flower and take microscope photographs, it would help.

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Bonjour

 

you mean D.albiflora :rolleyes:

 

have you a key to determinate the ant dischida species ?

 

without leaves , have you others discriminants caracters ? flowers ?

seeds caps ?

 

jeff

 

Yes, I mean D. albiflora!  :lol:   I mistype that one all the time. I need to be more careful.

 

I don't have a key to determine the ant species.  I'm not sure there is one.

 

If there are no leaves, the best way is through flowers.  Some require dissection b/c they are so similar to other species (like Dischidia cornuta and D. imbricata).

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